Workers with neurodivergent diagnoses such as autism, dyslexia, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder could radically improve organizations’ ability to innovate if employers better understand their strengths and needs. On this episode of McKinsey Talks Talent, McKinsey senior partner Brooke Weddle, partner Bryan Hancock, and global editorial director Lucia Rahilly speak with Dr. Lawrence Fung, associate professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Stanford University and the director of the Stanford Neurodiversity Project, about the productivity and creativity that neurodivergent employees can bring to organizations—and how employers can support them.
The following transcript has been edited for clarity and length.
What exactly is neurodiversity?
Lucia Rahilly: Let’s start with some context. We are presumably all familiar with terms like “autism” and “the spectrum,” but what do we mean when we talk about “neurodiversity” as a category?
Lawrence Fung: Neurodiversity is really a concept that regards people with differences in their brain function and behavioral traits as part of a normal variation of the human population. When we are talking about neurodiverse conditions, then we are talking about conditions like autism, dyslexia, ADHD [attention deficit hyperactivity disorder], and even Tourette’s syndrome, other neurologic conditions like epilepsy, and psychiatric conditions like bipolar disorder.
Lucia Rahilly: How many people are considered neurodivergent in the population overall?
Lawrence Fung: Overall, we would say about 20 percent or so. The autism rate is at about 2.85 percent in the United States. Around the world, it’s between 1 and 2 percent, depending on the country—most places are between 1 and 2 percent. And the rate of dyslexia is much higher. It’s about 13 to 15 percent. The rate of ADHD is 5 to 7 percent.
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Lucia Rahilly: It’s quite a significant percentage of the population. What does the employment picture look like for folks who fall into this demographic?
Lawrence Fung: Within the autism population, the unemployed and underemployed added together is about 80 percent. It’s a substantial percentage. It’s hard to pinpoint an accurate number for those with ADHD and dyslexia.
Reframing neurodiversity
Brooke Weddle: Can you describe the factors that are giving neurodiversity a moment right now, in terms of people’s awareness of the concept and even the importance they put on it?
Lawrence Fung: There are more neurodivergent and neurodiverse people speaking out, and more people are seeing that neurodivergent people can be really successful and change the world for the good. Also, some corporations are seeing neurodivergent people as highly innovative because they think so differently from others. They bring a lot of these innovative ideas to the organization. So neurodiversity can be a competitive advantage for organizations that embrace neurodiversity.
There are more neurodivergent and neurodiverse people speaking out, and more people are seeing that neurodivergent people can be really successful and change the world for the good.
Also contributing to this moment are lessons learned from the COVID-19 pandemic. I think there is a lot more understanding about working from home, for example. That used to be an accommodation for people who were neurodiverse. And now we all have figured out that it’s actually good for everyone.
Additionally, the case of George Floyd brought up a huge diversity discussion on things that we haven’t talked about in terms of racial diversity. People are thinking a lot more about the justice that needs to be put into consideration in a lot of organizations.
How HR can support neurodivergent workers
Bryan Hancock: We do see this picking up, even in some very large organizations. For example, quiet shopping hours where they turn down the music and lights to make it more accommodating for neurodivergent shoppers or for parents with neurodivergent children. I think we’re seeing some of this take off in mainstream. But the question I have is, there’s one thing where you’ve got a movement and an increased awareness, but what happens when the movement hits HR?
Lawrence Fung: A lot of the time, according to our research, the reason why people on the autism spectrum have a lot of challenges during the early stages of the interview process is because of their atypical social interactions, like a lack of eye contact. Or when they are talking about their special interests, maybe they talk much more than others do. The interviewer can become disengaged and not detect the neurodiverse signs.
If the interviewer is trained to understand and accept these behaviors, and therefore should not be penalizing the candidate, then we can make the interview process more neurodiversity friendly. If we make the interview process more neurodiversity friendly, then interviewers can do what they are supposed to do. They are supposed to match the qualifications of the candidates with the job requirements.
If we make the interview process more neurodiversity friendly, then interviewers can do what they are supposed to do. They are supposed to match the qualifications of the candidates with the job requirements.
Bryan Hancock: There’s an example of an interview in your book that resonated quite a bit with me. The interviewer asks the interviewee, “How did you find us?” And because the question was relatively ambiguous and open ended, the person responded, “Google Maps.” And that’s clearly not what the interviewer was looking for. What language is more helpful in this situation?
Lawrence Fung: Instead of asking, “How did you find us?” I would ask, “I’m interested in knowing how you found this particular job opportunity. Did you find it from the company’s website, a job website, or by other means?”
Bryan Hancock: That clarity takes the ambiguity out of the situation.
Lawrence Fung: Exactly.
The visible and invisible work environment
Lucia Rahilly: The first step is to hire neurodivergent job candidates. But once they’re employed within an organization, what are some examples of the kinds of behavioral adjustments that neurodivergent people have historically had to make in order to succeed in the workplace?
Lawrence Fung: A lot of the time, what we see is that some basic things like sensitivity to noise mean it would not be helpful to have an office or cubicle close to a copier or a restroom or in places where a lot of people are going to be chitchatting and so forth.
The workplace tends to have a lot of really subtle, not very concrete things going on. We call that the “hidden curriculum.” A hidden curriculum, for example, is that most people would expect the leader of a meeting to sit at the top of a 30-person conference room table, with the more junior people sitting in more peripheral positions. But there’s usually no book talking about this, and no one verbalizes where people should be sitting. People with autism need a heads-up about those types of things. Another example is if you’re planning to call upon an autistic person to give a report or share comments, spontaneously, it’s usually not going to go well. But if they’re told ahead of time what they are supposed to do, what their responsibilities may be, they can really shine.
It’s also very common for people on the autism spectrum to have executive function needs. They may be very overwhelmed when in a meeting with just ten people, especially when people are talking rapid fire. So having a bit of a debriefing to conclude what were the most important takeaways from the meeting is very helpful for people on the spectrum. A lot of people on the spectrum can be very good at many technical things. It is really the social interactions, the subtle hidden curriculum, that can make workplace dynamics difficult for them.
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Bryan Hancock: When the Americans with Disabilities Act came out and you had the curb cuts that made it more accessible for wheelchairs to get from sidewalk level to cross the street, it was also super helpful for people with strollers and for people carrying their suitcases. Does that curb cut analogy resonate with you in this context?
Lawrence Fung: Absolutely. One of the main approaches that we embrace is called “universal design,” or “universal design for learning.” This is what we hope organizations embrace. Initially maybe what’s best is for employers to think about behaving more conscientiously. But if they really buy into the idea that what’s good for neurodiverse people is going to benefit everyone, then they get a lot more bang for the buck. The changes are really for the entire organization.
Lucia Rahilly: And what we’ve been talking about, too, are employees who have self-disclosed as neurodivergent, right? But there must be many employees who are undiagnosed or even unaware for generational or other reasons of their own neurodivergence—in certain categories, at least—and who could be more productive, and therefore potentially happier, at work if certain adjustments were made.
Lawrence Fung: I’ve seen patients in my clinic for 15 years, and my experience is that about half of my patients do not want to talk about their diagnosis in their workplace or in the educational setting, because of a bad experience. A lot of the time, it could be even traumatic. To protect themselves, they don’t want to disclose the diagnosis.
The other thing is when people switch jobs, institutions, or organizations—like if they get brand-new jobs in prestigious organizations—they think, “I am really the cream of the crop. I know what I’m doing. I know this is a fresh start. I’m not going to tell anyone about my challenges.” So because of wanting to be excellent at a new place, there’s a higher chance for people who are neurodivergent and would not want to talk about what they need, and they suck it up.
Disclosure is definitely helpful for some people, but for others, it may not be the best thing. So that definitely speaks to the need for the workplace to be more universally designed so there’s no need to disclose diagnosis, and everyone can benefit from the adjustments.
Influencing culture change
Brooke Weddle: I can appreciate that. I want to go into how this leadership and managerial upskilling actually works. How do you get people to start changing the way they behave? How have you seen this be effective, and how does a company get started on some of this upskilling that would help enable some of the culture changes you’re talking about?
Lawrence Fung: What we believe is there are usually two major ingredients. One is that you need to have a strong executive sponsor. And the other is to have a strong grassroots effort. When the executive sponsors are influential and believe that neurodiversity-affirmative practices are the direction to go in for the organization, people follow.
You need a lot of people at all levels to embrace the change so it becomes embedded in the culture. Everyone starts thinking along the same lines: “We are doing this because this is good for the company, and it’s going to be good for me too. It’s not only good for neurodivergent individuals.”
Bryan Hancock: What have you seen in terms of neurodivergent individuals going into managerial positions and going into leadership positions? Are there any different challenges that come with people rising up the ladder?
Lawrence Fung: That’s something that we want to see happen more frequently. A lot of what we are seeing anecdotally is that many managers already in higher positions are neurodivergent, but they don’t really disclose their diagnosis. So I think part of it is that there are success stories, but there are also obstacles for neurodivergent individuals to go up the ladder because of a lot of hurdles in typical organizations that use typical HR performance review processes.
Lucia Rahilly: Could you say more about that? How should managers account for neurodiversity in performance management and particularly in those feedback discussions?
Lawrence Fung: I think a lot of people, in general, are very sensitive to criticism. People on the autism spectrum usually would take criticisms to heart more deeply. What the employers should really understand is they need to focus on more of a strength-based approach. What are the things the individual is contributing to the organization? And really spell it out in a way that is as specific as possible, so the individual knows that you’re not just saying, “Good job.”
Brooke Weddle: Where do you see the movement headed, and what are some of the big opportunities?
Lawrence Fung: On one hand, it’s really important to think about large organizations, but it’s also important to acknowledge that 70 percent of the US workforce consists of small to medium-sized companies. If you are to create opportunities for neurodiverse individuals, in all sizes of organizations, there will be a need for policy changes. To that end, there are some individuals starting to work on policy changes related to neurodiversity.
Lucia Rahilly: Suppose I’m a manager in a big organization, and I want to create a more neuroinclusive culture within my team. What are a few things that I could do to help foster that kind of engagement, productivity, and psychological safety among neurodivergent team members?
Lawrence Fung: Having some basic training on neurodiversity is going to help the managers and the group raise their awareness first, and then we can embrace some neurodiversity-affirmative practices that we can use in our next hire, for example. Also the cooperation of HR professionals can help. Otherwise there could be pushback if there’s no previous discussion and no buy-in.
Lucia Rahilly: Before we close, what has surprised you most in your research on neurodivergent populations in the workplace?
Lawrence Fung: People on the autism spectrum work in many different fields, many more than what I imagined. I was just speaking with a neurodivergent farmer from the United Kingdom, and she hired a couple of people on the spectrum. There’s farming to cybersecurity. We should be thinking about all different professions.
One common thing about neurodivergent individuals who are successful in their careers is their passion about their career, their passion about their work. If Albert Einstein and Alan Turing were alive and assessed, we might find they were on the spectrum. Anthony Hopkins, Dan Aykroyd, and Susan Boyle are on the spectrum, and they really changed the world for the good.
